In general, people all over the world need to rewatch the Disney movie "Bambi", especially the part where the little skunk has to repeat what his momma taught him:
"If ya can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!"
The expat groups in Vietnam are the same, though the specifics obviously differ. To some extent, I get it. If you actually know how the country the works why the fuck are you spending time on Facebook helping newbies? And why are so many newbies so fucking stupid? How did they even survive back home? So, to an extent, I can understand it. But also: just step away if you're finding yourself turning into an asshole because someone asked the same stupid question for the 10,000th time. ("Does anyone know where I can buy Marmite in Saigon?" Yes, that has literally never been asked once before in the history of the planet....)
I hear you. I am going to push back a little because I've seen people get horribly bullied over specific issues or issues that are not obvious. The examples I gave were an inheritance question and the time I referred to my civil marriage as a "civil marriage." But yes, why are new people asking, "How do I make iced tea in Paris?"
I moved to France in 1990, moved in with the demimonde of a commune on Rue de la Tombe Issoire (yes, Haynes Loft), worked at Centre Pompidou and spent my free time productively trying to learn enough street French to get laid with hot guys.
After a few oddly unpleasant experiences I avoided all expats. Same when I moved to Amsterdam years later.
I think there’a a fantasy of camaraderie, but it’s utterly false.
After from some utterly peculiar situations, I leaned to speak French Fluently and got laid with pleasant regularity and ended up with two boyfriends.
Back in the 90’s, we bought books that helped expats navigate daily life. I remember them as being solid sources of information. Learning the language was, and likely remains, the key to a good experience. Working in a French office helps. Be aware that making friends grows increasingly difficult with age, and is likely even harder in places like France compared to the US when it comes to the middle aged. Back when FUSAC was a physical, free magazine, I placed an ad looking to exchange English/French conversation. The people were from all walks of life and that was a great experience. Generally, the physical will trump the virtual: the asses of the internet are either home or staring at their phones, and rest are generally nice. Unplug. Whatever you do alone, see if you can do it with others. For example, if you exercise at home, consider going to the gym (and without your phone). Plenty of people love the US (with some political reservations) and wish to improve their English. Take advantage of it.
Also, the hard truth is that expat life doesn’t suit many people.
Oh, and I’d consider asking AI these days rather than some online group.
Is this comment directed at me? I've lived here for three years, my husband is French, I speak French, I am on the board of an association here, etc.
I use AI for my job all day long.
And this, this, dear reader, is the "advice" I wish to send to space with an Elon rocket, "Also, the hard truth is that expat life doesn’t suit many people."
Yes. It is hard. I am aware. We all know. I am trying to put words to it.
You seem rather prickly and very quick to raise the temperature, which strikes me as a bit ironic. I read your post and replied with my own experience to the sort of problems you were discussing. Living abroad can be hard, and I was trying to put words to it. Or at least I was trying to give some tips to those who are having a tough go of it.
And I stand by my words: Expat life doesn’t suit many people. I meant that as a statement of fact, and I’m not quite sure how you construed it as “advice”.
And while I’m delighted that you use AI all day long, I think using AI would generally yield better results than Facebook, and without the risk of unwelcome, toxic blowback.
I watched a group of women in “Madrid Expats” on FB verbally skewer woman who was asking for leads to re-home her golden retriever. Her beloved pet needed more than she could give and her family was expanding. The majority of commenters were viciously judgemental of what was clearly a really hard ask for this woman to make. Lots of “I could never, my dog is my family, have you thought about training?” 🙄 I so wish I could have given her dog a good second home. After that, I decided to forsake Facebook groups. Your taxonomies are hilariously accurate, unfortunately.
The married groups are terrible. It ranges from women sharing extremely personal and inappropriate things about their children to women saying that they should simply divorce their husbands.
There is zero compassion and all terrible advice.
I genuinely think it is bad for our mental health and well-being.
This is disappointing. As someone who is planning some stretches as an expat to some place in the years ahead, I thought the expat groups would be helpful for the experience. Sigh 😞…..
I’ve never lived abroad, but I can tell you my local town Facebook group is the most toxic cesspool of humanity. I had to leave it as it was making me hate my fellow townsfolk.
In a cute little coastal town, in the Boston suburbs. It really is a delightful place and most of the people here are lovely; but our Facebook page is dominated by crackpots, nutjobs, judgy Karens, and people with miscellaneous personality disorders - not to mention the random people who don't actually live here but have strong opinions about everything in town nonetheless!
I think facebook groups are the sewage system of humanity. Culty, edgy in the worst ways, and mean girls on steroids. I'm glad you wrote this - I think you performed an exorcism.
This was very cathartic to read. I'm on my second new country (Italy after Germany) and I love doing dramatic readings of the more ridiculous comments for my fiance.
Nice overview. I've not lived among expats in a 1st-world country but can tell you that real-life expat pathologies which emerge elsewhere are equally unhealthy, if not more so. There are a few good books or movies about some subgroups - settler societies (e.g., Kenya), journos (mostly war/conflict subset), and of course Embassy types and associated spies/intrigues. Once in a while I consider writing about ngo/development enclaves, but frankly I don't really want my brain to dwell too deeply in/on such memories. The transient human being (the expat-qua-expat is profoundly transient) is an unnatural creature, and it takes a special nature to navigate that lifestyle's pitfalls.
This seems remarkably similar to my experience on the Riviera when FB and FB groups were just getting going. There were also pre-facebook message boards (angloinfo.com ?) which were exactly the same.
Talking of "loving ... dog poop on sidewalks", even the French don't like it. They tolerate it. I remember Mougins had a poster about it that they posted in various places
Correct. The French don't like the dog poo on the sidewalk.
But the Integration Thirst Traps have to like everything in here. If you don't like something, it is because you are an entitled, lazy, stupid AmeriKKKan.
Do these folks ever talk about internal French politics? Or is it an article of faith that Le Pen is evil, immigrants are salt of the earth folks looking for a better life, and Vive le France!
I joined a local Facebook group after moving to Nice and was looking for a French tax accountant. It became clear that the most members are British and referrals were generally to expat British accountants who were inexperienced with the tax issues of Irish and US citizens. It’s also remarkable how many people in these groups think that Ireland 🇮🇪 is a part of the UK.
Yeah - the american situation is quite specific & largely due to a lot of US-based laws. Bureaucratically, the US doesn't play so well with others, in my experience - I'm thinking of driver's licenses and the IRS at the moment. But the IRS doesn't seem to play so well with anyone, really.
I personally avoid FB for all of the reasons you've listed and more. I could not count the number of "stupid" questions I've asked and continue to ask, really. There's also a kind of structural difference to the way that many systems work here that took me some time to get used to. People are where they're at & different things come up.
I like your Taxonomy! I have one that includes The Island of Lost Toys types, the Pick Me's and the I'm Just Drunk in a Different Country ones.
I maintain that there are no stupid questions, and we deserve an answer (even if it wasn't what we hoped!). Part of what gets in my craw is that these groups are *so freaking mean* to people who have genuine questions.
Tell us more about the Island of Lost Toys and I'm Just Drunk in a Different Country.
And are the Pick Mes different from Integration Thirst Traps?! :)
yeah - being mean about it makes no sense to me. People are weird about it all.
In my taxonomy, the Pick Me's tend to try and out-French the French folks a bit. Often apologizing for being American. "I'm not like those other tourists..."
The Island of Lost Toys are the misfits who never quite belonged—anywhere. Could be locals, could be from other countries. They drift, land, and stay low-key weird in peace.
I think I am one of these, myself. I know I look for these people.
Just Drunk in a Different Country
Same habits, different timezone. Living abroad mostly as a backdrop for the same party. Lotta passport stamps, lotta hangovers.
John,I have a hunch that we might be referring to the same group!
In the group I was in certain admin would be extremely rude and snide to Americans with tax issues and act like I had an IQ of three. But the matter was they are unfamiliar with US tax issues. They would be better off politely rejecting Americans from the group explaining that Franco American tax issues are outside their expertise.
In general, people all over the world need to rewatch the Disney movie "Bambi", especially the part where the little skunk has to repeat what his momma taught him:
"If ya can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!"
The expat groups in Vietnam are the same, though the specifics obviously differ. To some extent, I get it. If you actually know how the country the works why the fuck are you spending time on Facebook helping newbies? And why are so many newbies so fucking stupid? How did they even survive back home? So, to an extent, I can understand it. But also: just step away if you're finding yourself turning into an asshole because someone asked the same stupid question for the 10,000th time. ("Does anyone know where I can buy Marmite in Saigon?" Yes, that has literally never been asked once before in the history of the planet....)
I hear you. I am going to push back a little because I've seen people get horribly bullied over specific issues or issues that are not obvious. The examples I gave were an inheritance question and the time I referred to my civil marriage as a "civil marriage." But yes, why are new people asking, "How do I make iced tea in Paris?"
Yeah I think a lot of old bitter posters struggle to not reply instantly cynically to everything even when someone has a half decent question.
It's a problem with forums everywhere. People are more interested in replying fast than replying meaningfully.
I moved to France in 1990, moved in with the demimonde of a commune on Rue de la Tombe Issoire (yes, Haynes Loft), worked at Centre Pompidou and spent my free time productively trying to learn enough street French to get laid with hot guys.
After a few oddly unpleasant experiences I avoided all expats. Same when I moved to Amsterdam years later.
I think there’a a fantasy of camaraderie, but it’s utterly false.
After from some utterly peculiar situations, I leaned to speak French Fluently and got laid with pleasant regularity and ended up with two boyfriends.
Vive la France.🇫🇷
Big, if true.
Back in the 90’s, we bought books that helped expats navigate daily life. I remember them as being solid sources of information. Learning the language was, and likely remains, the key to a good experience. Working in a French office helps. Be aware that making friends grows increasingly difficult with age, and is likely even harder in places like France compared to the US when it comes to the middle aged. Back when FUSAC was a physical, free magazine, I placed an ad looking to exchange English/French conversation. The people were from all walks of life and that was a great experience. Generally, the physical will trump the virtual: the asses of the internet are either home or staring at their phones, and rest are generally nice. Unplug. Whatever you do alone, see if you can do it with others. For example, if you exercise at home, consider going to the gym (and without your phone). Plenty of people love the US (with some political reservations) and wish to improve their English. Take advantage of it.
Also, the hard truth is that expat life doesn’t suit many people.
Oh, and I’d consider asking AI these days rather than some online group.
Is this comment directed at me? I've lived here for three years, my husband is French, I speak French, I am on the board of an association here, etc.
I use AI for my job all day long.
And this, this, dear reader, is the "advice" I wish to send to space with an Elon rocket, "Also, the hard truth is that expat life doesn’t suit many people."
Yes. It is hard. I am aware. We all know. I am trying to put words to it.
You seem rather prickly and very quick to raise the temperature, which strikes me as a bit ironic. I read your post and replied with my own experience to the sort of problems you were discussing. Living abroad can be hard, and I was trying to put words to it. Or at least I was trying to give some tips to those who are having a tough go of it.
And I stand by my words: Expat life doesn’t suit many people. I meant that as a statement of fact, and I’m not quite sure how you construed it as “advice”.
And while I’m delighted that you use AI all day long, I think using AI would generally yield better results than Facebook, and without the risk of unwelcome, toxic blowback.
To be clear, it sounds like you intended to share advice with others rather than me (who you assumed didn't know these things).
Again, I know how to use AI. Thanks for being here and have a good day.
People on the internet are absurd caricatures. The same archetypes seem to play out everywhere and yet I am still surprised every time.
I am surprised at how vile they are.
I watched a group of women in “Madrid Expats” on FB verbally skewer woman who was asking for leads to re-home her golden retriever. Her beloved pet needed more than she could give and her family was expanding. The majority of commenters were viciously judgemental of what was clearly a really hard ask for this woman to make. Lots of “I could never, my dog is my family, have you thought about training?” 🙄 I so wish I could have given her dog a good second home. After that, I decided to forsake Facebook groups. Your taxonomies are hilariously accurate, unfortunately.
The married groups are terrible. It ranges from women sharing extremely personal and inappropriate things about their children to women saying that they should simply divorce their husbands.
There is zero compassion and all terrible advice.
I genuinely think it is bad for our mental health and well-being.
Seriously. People deserve better from their relationships.
This is disappointing. As someone who is planning some stretches as an expat to some place in the years ahead, I thought the expat groups would be helpful for the experience. Sigh 😞…..
I’ve never lived abroad, but I can tell you my local town Facebook group is the most toxic cesspool of humanity. I had to leave it as it was making me hate my fellow townsfolk.
Very interesting (and sad) that it works this way elsewhere to.
Where do you live (if you feel comfortable sharing)?
In a cute little coastal town, in the Boston suburbs. It really is a delightful place and most of the people here are lovely; but our Facebook page is dominated by crackpots, nutjobs, judgy Karens, and people with miscellaneous personality disorders - not to mention the random people who don't actually live here but have strong opinions about everything in town nonetheless!
What is the DEAL with the people who don’t live in a place but have YUGE opinions?
I think facebook groups are the sewage system of humanity. Culty, edgy in the worst ways, and mean girls on steroids. I'm glad you wrote this - I think you performed an exorcism.
Thank you. That means so much, truly. A few others have shared similar feelings about the post.
It was cathartic for ME too.
I don’t know what can ever be done to dredge the sewer system, but my biggest advice to everyone is…LOG OUT.
This was very cathartic to read. I'm on my second new country (Italy after Germany) and I love doing dramatic readings of the more ridiculous comments for my fiance.
It was cathartic to WRITE. So glad you enjoyed it.
Nice overview. I've not lived among expats in a 1st-world country but can tell you that real-life expat pathologies which emerge elsewhere are equally unhealthy, if not more so. There are a few good books or movies about some subgroups - settler societies (e.g., Kenya), journos (mostly war/conflict subset), and of course Embassy types and associated spies/intrigues. Once in a while I consider writing about ngo/development enclaves, but frankly I don't really want my brain to dwell too deeply in/on such memories. The transient human being (the expat-qua-expat is profoundly transient) is an unnatural creature, and it takes a special nature to navigate that lifestyle's pitfalls.
Omg please we need this book!
Thanks! I’d love to hear your stories if you ever feel comfortable sharing.
I met someone the other who did aid work for the Red Cross. His next appointment is…the Geneva office.
This seems remarkably similar to my experience on the Riviera when FB and FB groups were just getting going. There were also pre-facebook message boards (angloinfo.com ?) which were exactly the same.
Talking of "loving ... dog poop on sidewalks", even the French don't like it. They tolerate it. I remember Mougins had a poster about it that they posted in various places
“C’est un trottoir, pas un crottoir”.
Correct. The French don't like the dog poo on the sidewalk.
But the Integration Thirst Traps have to like everything in here. If you don't like something, it is because you are an entitled, lazy, stupid AmeriKKKan.
Do these folks ever talk about internal French politics? Or is it an article of faith that Le Pen is evil, immigrants are salt of the earth folks looking for a better life, and Vive le France!
They do but it usually about the Bad Orange Man literally Hitler omg I’m shaking.
All Le Pen fans are racists and fascists.
The dysregulation is strong.
One wonders where these people will flee to next when Le Pen wins the next election... Iran?
So only in the context of US politics which they moved to France to “escape”. Makes perfect sense to me…🤯
I joined a local Facebook group after moving to Nice and was looking for a French tax accountant. It became clear that the most members are British and referrals were generally to expat British accountants who were inexperienced with the tax issues of Irish and US citizens. It’s also remarkable how many people in these groups think that Ireland 🇮🇪 is a part of the UK.
Yeah - the american situation is quite specific & largely due to a lot of US-based laws. Bureaucratically, the US doesn't play so well with others, in my experience - I'm thinking of driver's licenses and the IRS at the moment. But the IRS doesn't seem to play so well with anyone, really.
I personally avoid FB for all of the reasons you've listed and more. I could not count the number of "stupid" questions I've asked and continue to ask, really. There's also a kind of structural difference to the way that many systems work here that took me some time to get used to. People are where they're at & different things come up.
I like your Taxonomy! I have one that includes The Island of Lost Toys types, the Pick Me's and the I'm Just Drunk in a Different Country ones.
"Finding", welcome and thanks for the comment.
I maintain that there are no stupid questions, and we deserve an answer (even if it wasn't what we hoped!). Part of what gets in my craw is that these groups are *so freaking mean* to people who have genuine questions.
Tell us more about the Island of Lost Toys and I'm Just Drunk in a Different Country.
And are the Pick Mes different from Integration Thirst Traps?! :)
yeah - being mean about it makes no sense to me. People are weird about it all.
In my taxonomy, the Pick Me's tend to try and out-French the French folks a bit. Often apologizing for being American. "I'm not like those other tourists..."
The Island of Lost Toys are the misfits who never quite belonged—anywhere. Could be locals, could be from other countries. They drift, land, and stay low-key weird in peace.
I think I am one of these, myself. I know I look for these people.
Just Drunk in a Different Country
Same habits, different timezone. Living abroad mostly as a backdrop for the same party. Lotta passport stamps, lotta hangovers.
It's not a perfect system.
Got it! The Pick-Mes are like the Integration Thirst Traps.
Wow. Yes. And I think that is a great name for a new Substack
I second this 🤚 for “integration thirst traps” 😂
John,I have a hunch that we might be referring to the same group!
In the group I was in certain admin would be extremely rude and snide to Americans with tax issues and act like I had an IQ of three. But the matter was they are unfamiliar with US tax issues. They would be better off politely rejecting Americans from the group explaining that Franco American tax issues are outside their expertise.