American healthcare costs are the most expensive in the world, so you pay in Europe but you pay less. Yes you have to pay taxes in France, UK, Germany, but you never hear of people in Europe going bankrupt or lose everything because they've had cancer.
Social Security & Medicare are each individual taxes so a wee bit disingenuous to describe this as 46% of US federal budget which is comprised of federal income taxes.
I grew up in a Canada and thankfully got offered a job in the US 24 years ago. Same thing there and I hear it’s gotten worse. Health care here was great before ObamaCare. If we could change it back, it would cost a lot less. If only we had a republican majority and president….
There are a lot of things that could be done to make healthcare more affordable in the US. And I agree that there is a lack of political willpower to make the necessary changes.
Thanks for posting this excellent article about the true cost of “free” healthcare/social services in France. And the United States is headed in the same direction. When the federal government boosted funding for healthcare and college tuition, the cost of healthcare and college tuition rose exponentially. Basically, there are no free rides, and whenever you hear that something like healthcare is free, you can be sure that it’s a lie.
Thanks, that’s basically my point. I read a lot about the supposed free benefits of living in European countries, but nothing is free. Every system has trade-offs. I’m not here to say that America is better or France is better. They’re just different.
Well…some things about the European system might be worse…I have European friends who lived in France and Belgium. Their biggest complaint concerned the red tape involved with getting anything done…like getting electricity, sewage, phone service, etc. connected or repaired. Two of them (brothers) tried to start up a computer repair business, but it took them almost a year to file the paperwork and get the approvals they needed. They both got green cards to work in the United States and got their business up and running legally within 48 hours.
I have never lived or worked in France, nor do I know many people who have, however I have eaten many French fries. As such, since this is the internet I feel I am not only qualified to comment, but also compelled to.
I must point out that a growing percentage of Americans **are** poor often lacking adequate shelter, healthcare, and increasingly now food often while working multiple jobs. Pointing to the roughly 20 percent of the American nation who are upper middle class and above as having a better life than the European upper middle class is disingenuous. Much of this betterment comes from the forty percent of the national income being shifted from the bottom eighty percent to the top twenty percent since the 1970s. Then we can note the impoverishment of America has been steadily rising up the income ladder for forty years.
You are wrong that a growing percentage of Americans are poor. The rate fluctuates from year to year but it's not growing. We hover between 11-15% and have been for 50 years.
As has been said elsewhere, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. My Dad could support himself on the minimum wage in the 1960s. This was normal then. Today, there are no cities in the United States where a man can rent a two bedroom apartment on the minimum wage. The cost of food, housing, education, and healthcare has been increasing faster than wages for years. The percentage of homeless people who are working is increasing. The food banks are overwhelmed.
This is a pattern that I have been following for forty years as well as the ongoing manipulation of the numbers to hide it. I wish it was otherwise, but I will believe my lying eyes for now.
“… to live up to its promise of being conceived in liberty, we must put responsibility in the hands of individuals and families.”
This is the sine quo nihil. Although I would say we need to expect individual responsibility. The more government assumes responsibility for anyone, the less freedom all of us have.
It’s never noticed, though it should be: that Instagram influencer who posts about how cool, convenient, and easy their free European childcare is, is usually s relatively wealthy individual.
I’d be curious to know how liquid the French system is. Like you stated, and accurately so in my experience, we do have a rather idealistic view of European social welfare systems. But in most if not all cases their systems are not just lacking choice and quality but bloated and constantly threatening bankruptcy.
I think the most egregious example of this is the UKs NHS. It’s a system that’s objectively horrible and hasn’t been even monetarily neutral since, what, 1947?
Health care isn't really free anywhere. In Canada we pay for it through out taxes, mostly the more you make the more you pay into this. In America you get most of your health care paid for by your employer. This allows lower tax but since the cost of health care for each person doesn't care how much you make it's essentially the same cost no matter how much you make this means lower paid workers are costing their employer as much for health care as high paid workers. This effectively makes poor people pay a greater share of the health care cost. Good for France that they actually break this number out so people can see how much they are paying.
Canada is going to a $10/day subsidized system. Not everyone is buying into it and it does limit choice for parents but I know people that have spent more for daycare than I do for my mortgage. It starts to make sense for (mostly women) to put careers on hold because they can't make enough to pay for childcare. It does make sense to subsidize daycare for low income people. The other option when everyone stops having babies is to prop up population with immigration.
All pensions and investments are a ponzi scheme. As long as we have a growing population of people wealthy enough to buy in prices will go up but if population declines and or wealth of younger people declines then there will be no one to keep pushing prices up. Your 401K isn't safe from this. Canada's previous conservative government pushed our retirement age up to 67 from 65 and then when a liberal government replaced them they brought it back to 65. The liberals have played with it too, giving older retirees more money while excluding the younger ones from it, clearly stretching the budget to motivate voters. I don't see how American Social Security is free from political interference or needing future generations to pay into it. Let's see what happens with Trump and Musk deciding.
It's a bit hypocritical to complain about French off the books labour when America counts on so much undocumented immigrant labour to do the work no one else does. No place is perfect but Canada has been better shielded from undocumented immigration. Geographically we are harder to get to and it's cold but we also don't have a big culture of hiring people to work for cash. The odd business with do a small job for a friend in cash but it's rare that someone can make a living without having a work permit or citizenship.
The assumptions are (1) I thought healthcare was « free » anywhere (duh it’s not) (2) Not including American illegal immigration (there’s literally a word limit on most published commentary pieces) (3) I think American SS is free from govt interference
Thanks, you did have several point to discuss, maybe not? I'll just dig back into one. You were critical of "off books employment" without a comparison to what is happening in America does seem hypocritical. You were limited by word count so you left this out?
Hello? I most certainly do understand the law of supply and demand. How does that relate to anything I said? And how have I turned into some sort of reference for idiocy on your post? Ordinarily I’m not touchy but you’re pushing it.
I appreciate this post. I was just trying to understand the social charges on my tax bill from last year. Seems reasonable to me that I chip in for services benefiting all - especially the least fortunate - and I benefit from living in a country where all lives are still considered worth something & the race to earn more euros doesn’t crowd out the rest of life.
Thanks for this detail, very interesting. Can you estimate the overall tax rates in France including social charges if one earns the French equivalent of a low six figure income -- say between $120k and $200k?
As you probably know in the US for that salary range we pay roughly 35% in local, state, federal, ss and medicare taxes, health insurance equivalent of another ~10% of income and in NY or CA 8% sales tax. That's around 50% of income going to taxes and health insurance, we aren't covered if we lose our jobs, and we get no other benefits like child care.
1.) Begin with the fact that France’s salaries are about *half of America’s. *According to Forbes “ A quarter earn less than $1,832 (€1,670) and almost a quarter earn more than $3,291 (€3,000). The top 10% of high earners earn $4,575 (€4,170), and to be in the top 1% you need to be earning at least $11,000 (€10,000) per month after tax.”
2. Social charges are *on top* of taxes.
3. There are not the same tax deductions like mortgage interest rate.
4. Here is France’s tax brackets. This does not include investment taxes.
Thanks! So it looks like for the range I was asking about income tax is 41-45% plus the social charges and VAT @ varying rates from 5.5-20%. Altogether comes to somewhere roughly between 55-60% it seems. Higher but it must be nice to live without fear of losing insurance or going bankrupt if you get sick.
It amazes me that a bit over 100 years ago there was no income tax at all in the US and now half our income goes to the govt and crap obamacare "insurance".
Yeah I get that. And the tax rate would be lower too. Tradeoffs everywhere but I think it'd be nice to live without so much desperation and precarity. Not to mention inflation in almost everything.
The way I see it UK/France/Germany/Italy/Scandos had a pretty good thing going before they opened their borders to tens of millions of immigrants they cannot afford. Most people didn't get rich but they have better quality food, less fear of losing everything and better job security.
The way things are in the US we can't rely on a job being around from year to year. I'd trade a lot for some stability.
American healthcare costs are the most expensive in the world, so you pay in Europe but you pay less. Yes you have to pay taxes in France, UK, Germany, but you never hear of people in Europe going bankrupt or lose everything because they've had cancer.
I agree with you that it is awful that there are people who have to sell their home or file for bankruptcy due to medical costs.
The reasons behind America’s costly healthcare are out of scope for this discussion.
Social Security & Medicare are each individual taxes so a wee bit disingenuous to describe this as 46% of US federal budget which is comprised of federal income taxes.
Why? How would you describe in 100 words (publications have very strict word limits) individual taxes —> go to budget —> disbursed by the govt ?
The fact it’s and individual tax …proves my point, no?
I grew up in a Canada and thankfully got offered a job in the US 24 years ago. Same thing there and I hear it’s gotten worse. Health care here was great before ObamaCare. If we could change it back, it would cost a lot less. If only we had a republican majority and president….
There are a lot of things that could be done to make healthcare more affordable in the US. And I agree that there is a lack of political willpower to make the necessary changes.
Thanks for posting this excellent article about the true cost of “free” healthcare/social services in France. And the United States is headed in the same direction. When the federal government boosted funding for healthcare and college tuition, the cost of healthcare and college tuition rose exponentially. Basically, there are no free rides, and whenever you hear that something like healthcare is free, you can be sure that it’s a lie.
Thanks, that’s basically my point. I read a lot about the supposed free benefits of living in European countries, but nothing is free. Every system has trade-offs. I’m not here to say that America is better or France is better. They’re just different.
Well…some things about the European system might be worse…I have European friends who lived in France and Belgium. Their biggest complaint concerned the red tape involved with getting anything done…like getting electricity, sewage, phone service, etc. connected or repaired. Two of them (brothers) tried to start up a computer repair business, but it took them almost a year to file the paperwork and get the approvals they needed. They both got green cards to work in the United States and got their business up and running legally within 48 hours.
Nothing is free. That’s what becoming an adult means; realizing that someone’s always picking up the tab. If it’s not your Daddy then it’s the State.
I have never lived or worked in France, nor do I know many people who have, however I have eaten many French fries. As such, since this is the internet I feel I am not only qualified to comment, but also compelled to.
Here it is:
Whoa! That sucks!
My article sucks?
No. I liked the article. The situation sucks.
I must point out that a growing percentage of Americans **are** poor often lacking adequate shelter, healthcare, and increasingly now food often while working multiple jobs. Pointing to the roughly 20 percent of the American nation who are upper middle class and above as having a better life than the European upper middle class is disingenuous. Much of this betterment comes from the forty percent of the national income being shifted from the bottom eighty percent to the top twenty percent since the 1970s. Then we can note the impoverishment of America has been steadily rising up the income ladder for forty years.
You are wrong that a growing percentage of Americans are poor. The rate fluctuates from year to year but it's not growing. We hover between 11-15% and have been for 50 years.
As has been said elsewhere, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. My Dad could support himself on the minimum wage in the 1960s. This was normal then. Today, there are no cities in the United States where a man can rent a two bedroom apartment on the minimum wage. The cost of food, housing, education, and healthcare has been increasing faster than wages for years. The percentage of homeless people who are working is increasing. The food banks are overwhelmed.
This is a pattern that I have been following for forty years as well as the ongoing manipulation of the numbers to hide it. I wish it was otherwise, but I will believe my lying eyes for now.
You’re almost there. Being impoverished in France is better than in the US.
Being middle class in the US is better than in France.
“… to live up to its promise of being conceived in liberty, we must put responsibility in the hands of individuals and families.”
This is the sine quo nihil. Although I would say we need to expect individual responsibility. The more government assumes responsibility for anyone, the less freedom all of us have.
It’s never noticed, though it should be: that Instagram influencer who posts about how cool, convenient, and easy their free European childcare is, is usually s relatively wealthy individual.
In my experience, and it is just my experience, the ones posting about it...
1.) Send their kids to private, American schools
2.) OR, do not use childcare as one spouse stays at home
As such, they are talking about a pretend thing they don't use (usually)
I’d be curious to know how liquid the French system is. Like you stated, and accurately so in my experience, we do have a rather idealistic view of European social welfare systems. But in most if not all cases their systems are not just lacking choice and quality but bloated and constantly threatening bankruptcy.
I think the most egregious example of this is the UKs NHS. It’s a system that’s objectively horrible and hasn’t been even monetarily neutral since, what, 1947?
For instance?
'It's a system that's objectively horrible'
That is a very very very broad brush you are using there.
It has it's problems to be sure but it also has enormous strengths which it appears you are unaware of.
It is a good question. I believe that France has had to borrow extensively to fund its healthcare system.
In my view, no matter one’s thoughts on universal healthcare, we have to admit that something has to give…kinda like social security in the US.
You always pay, for whatever it is. You pay with money or time or freedom or options or some externality you don't see. Nothing is free.
Correct
"So, why don’t the French invest in private retirement accounts?"
France is actually one of the countries in Europe with the highest savings rates.
The point, which was crystal clear, is that they largely depend on pensions funded by taxes. Americans tend to invest in 401ks by necessity.
ETA: there was also an assumption I observed among aime Americans where they assumed French are too dumb to save. That’s not the case.
Be well and happy new year.
Health care isn't really free anywhere. In Canada we pay for it through out taxes, mostly the more you make the more you pay into this. In America you get most of your health care paid for by your employer. This allows lower tax but since the cost of health care for each person doesn't care how much you make it's essentially the same cost no matter how much you make this means lower paid workers are costing their employer as much for health care as high paid workers. This effectively makes poor people pay a greater share of the health care cost. Good for France that they actually break this number out so people can see how much they are paying.
Canada is going to a $10/day subsidized system. Not everyone is buying into it and it does limit choice for parents but I know people that have spent more for daycare than I do for my mortgage. It starts to make sense for (mostly women) to put careers on hold because they can't make enough to pay for childcare. It does make sense to subsidize daycare for low income people. The other option when everyone stops having babies is to prop up population with immigration.
All pensions and investments are a ponzi scheme. As long as we have a growing population of people wealthy enough to buy in prices will go up but if population declines and or wealth of younger people declines then there will be no one to keep pushing prices up. Your 401K isn't safe from this. Canada's previous conservative government pushed our retirement age up to 67 from 65 and then when a liberal government replaced them they brought it back to 65. The liberals have played with it too, giving older retirees more money while excluding the younger ones from it, clearly stretching the budget to motivate voters. I don't see how American Social Security is free from political interference or needing future generations to pay into it. Let's see what happens with Trump and Musk deciding.
It's a bit hypocritical to complain about French off the books labour when America counts on so much undocumented immigrant labour to do the work no one else does. No place is perfect but Canada has been better shielded from undocumented immigration. Geographically we are harder to get to and it's cold but we also don't have a big culture of hiring people to work for cash. The odd business with do a small job for a friend in cash but it's rare that someone can make a living without having a work permit or citizenship.
Chris, are you ok? This comment is really long and makes a lot of assumptions about my beliefs.
I'm great, just commenting on what you've written. Is there a specific assumption you are concerned about?
Well, it’s unusual to write such a long comment.
The assumptions are (1) I thought healthcare was « free » anywhere (duh it’s not) (2) Not including American illegal immigration (there’s literally a word limit on most published commentary pieces) (3) I think American SS is free from govt interference
Happy New Year, Chris. Thanks for stopping by.
Thanks, you did have several point to discuss, maybe not? I'll just dig back into one. You were critical of "off books employment" without a comparison to what is happening in America does seem hypocritical. You were limited by word count so you left this out?
Happy New Year to you as well.
As you can see, the article is about France. It is not a comparative piece.
Typically op-eds are 400-1,200 words (max) and have 3 supporting points. You probably know this.
This piece follows a standard op-ed structure and is not a comparison (that part is clear).
As for attempting start an immigration fight…. no thanks.
Anyway, have a good day.
What do you know? The French legislature cannot, any more than any other legislature can, repeal the law of supply and demand in whole or in part.
It’s unclear that Sara understood that.
Hello? I most certainly do understand the law of supply and demand. How does that relate to anything I said? And how have I turned into some sort of reference for idiocy on your post? Ordinarily I’m not touchy but you’re pushing it.
I appreciate this post. I was just trying to understand the social charges on my tax bill from last year. Seems reasonable to me that I chip in for services benefiting all - especially the least fortunate - and I benefit from living in a country where all lives are still considered worth something & the race to earn more euros doesn’t crowd out the rest of life.
Thanks for stopping by. For help understanding your tax bill (we got ours months ago) I recommend engaging an accountant.
And I agree, all lives matter.
Good day.
I have one, thanks.
Great; that is the right resource for understanding one’s tax bill. It is odd you found this helpful for understanding your taxes.
Have a great holiday season, Sara.
Actually I procrastinated & didn’t ask them until today & after sending them a mail, I read your post. 🤪
Thanks for this detail, very interesting. Can you estimate the overall tax rates in France including social charges if one earns the French equivalent of a low six figure income -- say between $120k and $200k?
As you probably know in the US for that salary range we pay roughly 35% in local, state, federal, ss and medicare taxes, health insurance equivalent of another ~10% of income and in NY or CA 8% sales tax. That's around 50% of income going to taxes and health insurance, we aren't covered if we lose our jobs, and we get no other benefits like child care.
1.) Begin with the fact that France’s salaries are about *half of America’s. *According to Forbes “ A quarter earn less than $1,832 (€1,670) and almost a quarter earn more than $3,291 (€3,000). The top 10% of high earners earn $4,575 (€4,170), and to be in the top 1% you need to be earning at least $11,000 (€10,000) per month after tax.”
2. Social charges are *on top* of taxes.
3. There are not the same tax deductions like mortgage interest rate.
4. Here is France’s tax brackets. This does not include investment taxes.
https://entreprendre.service-public.fr/actualites/A17116?lang=en
Thanks! So it looks like for the range I was asking about income tax is 41-45% plus the social charges and VAT @ varying rates from 5.5-20%. Altogether comes to somewhere roughly between 55-60% it seems. Higher but it must be nice to live without fear of losing insurance or going bankrupt if you get sick.
It amazes me that a bit over 100 years ago there was no income tax at all in the US and now half our income goes to the govt and crap obamacare "insurance".
Right but if you were a French person on a French salary your salary would most likely be far less than your salary now.
So it’s a big trade off.
You can experience something similar by voluntarily taking a lower paying job and going on Obamacare.
Yeah I get that. And the tax rate would be lower too. Tradeoffs everywhere but I think it'd be nice to live without so much desperation and precarity. Not to mention inflation in almost everything.
The way I see it UK/France/Germany/Italy/Scandos had a pretty good thing going before they opened their borders to tens of millions of immigrants they cannot afford. Most people didn't get rich but they have better quality food, less fear of losing everything and better job security.
The way things are in the US we can't rely on a job being around from year to year. I'd trade a lot for some stability.